Robert Pacey
Cory Schlesinger, welcome to the Pacey Performance Podcast. Before I introduce you properly. I’m going to say a big thanks to Robin Thorpe because that’s what he’d want. Thanks for the introduction. But I’ve Cory, thank you for giving me time, mate.
Cory Schlesinger
No worries. And it’s an honor to be on this show. I’ve listened to it for years and the caliber of speakers you’ve had on or guests before me, it’s just, I don’t know why you pick me, but I’m happy to be here.
Robert Pacey
A rave review from Robin. That’s what it is, mate and yeah.
Cory Schlesinger
Robin’s high class, high class, dude.
Robert Pacey
He’ll love that. He’ll absolutely love that. We both know he’ll love that.
Cory Schlesinger
For sure.
Robert Pacey
Anyone that doesn’t know who you are Cory, would you mind just giving us a bit of a brief background on you because you’ve had an interesting journey to get where you’ve got today.
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah, I’ll be a hundred percent honest, most of the time when I hear this part of the podcast, I start hitting the 15, second 30 second button on people.
Robert Pacey
Yes.
Cory Schlesinger
So my goal is to make it as quick and concise as possible.
Robert Pacey
Thanks mate.
Cory Schlesinger
But as far as the intro, it’s real simple. I played college basketball, like literally the lowest level of college basketball. So I’ve always loved it. Just obviously wasn’t good enough. So I had to find another route to get there and to increase my “performance”. And so that’s where physical training came in and then I stayed in basketball my entire career. So since I was 17, 18 years old, I’ve been in college basketball all the way up until about two or three years ago. And now I’m in professional sports in the NBA. So yeah, four years as a player, 15 as a coach, wow, in college. And then now I’m going into my third in season in the NBA.
Robert Pacey
What were your limitations as a player?
Cory Schlesinger
Ooh, size, skill, strength, all of the above. Oh, maturity is probably the biggest one. I was such an immature joke. But yeah, that’s, I think that’s really why I coach now is because I’m trying to give back or try to save the people that were like me and it’s like, oh my God, I would do anything to have another crack at being a college athlete and just understanding like, this is the point of team, this is the point of culture. This is the point of, I would do anything to go back to that and be a good soldier, yeah.
Robert Pacey
So more driven on the character, personality side, just as much as the physical, because of what you went through?
Cory Schlesinger
Oh, a hundred percent.
Robert Pacey
Yeah, okay
Cory Schlesinger
Hundred percent. I mean, it’s really, every time I train somebody, I think like it’s really I’m training myself. It’s really, I’m going back and I’m like, God, I wish I had these resources. Like these are the things I wish I had. So selfishly it’s like, I’m not training anybody else, I’m just training my, like who I used to be, like my younger self and man would I love that kind of attention and specificity into what I was doing and guidance, you know, becoming a young man, you know.
Robert Pacey
So when you were shocked at the fact that you said 15 years, 15 years ago, was the path that you had in your mind to get to the NBA?
Cory Schlesinger
Oh, I had no ambition of the NBA. The NBA was not a goal at all. College is what I loved because there’s a part of college where it’s more than just strength training. You know, like it’s your typical, you know, here’s a coach to athlete relationship and they’re younger. So you can put them in those fragile years of 17 to 22 years old of developing into the man they’re going to be for the rest of their life. And that’s what I didn’t have at that time. So for me, I took that part very, very serious as far as the maturity and the instilling certain characteristics into a program that will hopefully guide them for the rest of their lives. That was what college was for me. That’s what I love the most about college. The strength trading, well, that part was easy because, you know, everyone’s pretty compliant because you have to be.
Robert Pacey
So why take the leap then if that was, yeah, that was your baby, the college setting was your baby?
Cory Schlesinger
I got comfortable. I got super comfortable and it hit me at the most perfect time of my life, where I was like, you know what? Like, I can take a chance now. And it wasn’t that I wanted to leave college necessarily. It’s just, I was recruited by some really high level people and I got very comfortable that it wouldn’t be the stereotypes of what I thought the NBA would be and that I would be able to do the things that I thought was proper. And so, yeah, I was very, very fortunate to be into a situation where I got specifically recruited by this organization and by the leadership roles that were in it to be able to do some things here.
Robert Pacey
Without throwing yourself or anyone else under the bus, when it comes to NBA stereotypes, what was the stereotype that you had in your mind that the NBA was like?
Cory Schlesinger
Oh, man, I was such a meathead too. That’s the best part. Like I still love my meathead roots, but I was such a meathead. So in college I was like, they don’t train, they don’t lift, you know, back then I was like, they don’t snatch clean and jerk. They don’t dead lift. So like who are these guys? They just sit there and they do all this functional, like bouncing on a Bosu ball stuff. They’re doing the, you know, the fitness guru stuff. I was like, man, the NBA, they don’t train. That was like my thought process going in. And boy was I wrong? You know, I mean, there’s some things that definitely checked the box. I was like, okay, I knew I was right about that. But at the end of the day, it’s the environment and whatever you make it.
And so, you know, if there are certain things that you’re not happy with, it’s on you to make those changes. Like you can’t just go with the flow forever on everything and just everything else becomes stagnant from there. So in my head I’m like, these guys don’t get load. All they do is like move. You know, they do like just a bunch of movement stuff. They never really do anything for quote unquote adaptations. So in my head that was informing. Yeah, because then I was about how jacked can I get, how fast can I run? I was scared about outputs and aesthetics than I was about actual performance.
Robert Pacey
So that perception that you had pre NBA and you’ve mentioned there that some of the things, most of them things didn’t actually come true when you got into the NBA. Was there anything that you hung your hat on in the collegiate setting that you were adamant that you were going to take into the NBA that maybe worked and maybe some things that didn’t?
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah, I thought autonomy was going to be something that was like, yeah, these guys are going to want to make their own choices. They’re going to want to, you know, have options because that was something I was getting more and more into the my later college years, was the power of owning your own stuff. And so I was like, yeah, they’re going to love that the next level. And quite frankly, it was the exact opposite. Now tell me what to do. Like, why am I here? It’s like, okay, you know what? You’re right.
So, but at the end of the day, their personalities and obviously the environment, everyone is so different and some people want it all, some people want to actually truly understand and then there’s others that’s just like, “Hey, just take me through it. Like I just got to check this box.” My goal was to make that box worth checking
Robert Pacey
Answer me this Cory, and this is slightly off topic, but it kind of fits in a little bit. You’re on here discussing the things that we’re going to discuss about your program and whatnot. And what’s going on the organization, obviously not going into depth with individual players and that’s completely understandable and that would never happen no matter where you were from.
Cory Schlesinger
For sure.
Robert Pacey
But given the openness of our industry and the communication that’s going on through podcasts, through webinars, through articles, what is it about your organization that allows you to sit here in front of me now and have this discussion, when other organizations may not look favorably on someone in a position like yourself doing that, given the fact that we kind of all know that everyone’s doing very similar stuff.
Cory Schlesinger
Right.
Robert Pacey
Why is that? And that’s the same in NBA, that’s the same in Premier League, that’s the same everywhere, I get that. But what is it about the songs that allows you to feel comfortable and have the freedom to be able to come on and talk about it so openly?
Cory Schlesinger
Well, it’s the leadership. You know, I mean, we have leadership in roles that … Like it’s one thing to have a title, it’s another thing to actually use your title, right? And so luckily here it’s empowerment and it doesn’t matter what role you possess here. The goal is for you to grow in some form or fashion. And the only way to do that is to get on the fringe and be vulnerable. And I think that’s one thing that we’re okay with being, we’re okay with being vulnerable. It’s okay to talk about these things. It’s okay to, you know, put out information, don’t get me wrong. It ain’t like we’ve got this secret protocol that keeps tendon health’s, you know, stronger than anyone else.
You know, it’s more of like, yeah, guys, we understand the science, we understand the adaptations. We understand certain things that are just innately there, but it’s our leadership that allows us to be able to grow independently within our roles and to the collective that makes everyone better. And so for us, I think that gives us more of a platform to be stronger independently so that we can be stronger collectively.
Robert Pacey
Good answer. Good answer. So from a stupid Englishman, when it comes to the NBA and collegiate basketball as well, what are the biggest differences from a person your position, for a strength coach from a day-to-day perspective, from a, I suppose from a philosophical perspective, what are the biggest differences that you could communicate with those and tell a dumb Englishman about?
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah, college and NBA, well, first and foremost, it’s the competition itself, right? There’s triple the amount of games in an NBA season than there are in a collegiate season. So that alone is going to dictate how we’re training anyways. So for me, it’s very important to just look at the most common things, which is okay, here are the amount of games in a season, here are the amount of practices in the season. The biggest difference between college and the pros, the pros, it’s triple in competition, but it’s significantly less in practice. In colleges is exact opposite. You spend way more time practicing for competition or preparing for competition than you actually compete. So that alone is going to have you two totally different philosophies on how you can physically train for either sector.
And so that’s the hugest differences alone that, and the relationships are different. Quite simply, in the college setting it’s I am the coach, you are the athlete. Don’t get me wrong, as far as priority it’s probably the exact opposite. But the reality is I am an instructor or I am like a teacher and I’m here to instruct you and to help you get better. In the NBA, it’s exact opposite for real. Like these are my coworkers, we’re the same age.
Robert Pacey
Interesting. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Cory Schlesinger
So it’s a totally different conversation. Like I’m talking to these guys and they have two kids and they have families and these are grown men. So at that point, I don’t look at it as a coach to athlete relationship. I look at it like that’s my coworker. And if not, if anything else it’s like, I’m his assistant. Like I assist, I’m his personal assistant when it comes to everything, health and performance, you know. That’s what our support system is, our support staff is. We’re assistance to them individually in my opinion. I don’t look at it as, here I am the coach, I’m talking down to the athlete, I’m going to get this whole thing right. It’s how can I get it right for you? Because you’re on a different journey than anyone else and it’s contracts. You know, some guys are locked in on max, there’s certain guys, they’re just trying to make it through the year.
You know, everyone has different motivations to rather keep their job or to, you know, some guys are like leaving mid season. Some guys are coming in mid season. It’s wild. And that’s the professionalism. That’s the part that is significantly different. It’s yes, it’s professional sports, but the professionalism within the sport, when you acquire new or, you know, guys leave, it’s just pick and plug and play. And it’s the same as if I was probably at a … If I worked at a 9:00 to 5:00 and I walk in and I’m like, “Hi, I’m Cory, I’m in HR.” You know, it’s very similar and that’s the part that’s super weird for me coming from college because it’s, everybody’s on campus. We’re all kind of, you know, it’s like this whole little culture, then you come into here and it’s like, no, these are my coworkers. And it’s just different conversations and it’s different relate-ability, it’s fun.
Robert Pacey
How do you manage that? The fact that these guys and this is coming from personal experience when I was nowhere near the level of where you are in the NBA, but very much on the same level when I was in academy football. I’d been there a few years earlier. The lads knew that I’d been there a few years earlier, so they could kind of relate. I was kind of one of them but a few years older. I found that quite difficult. That was my first role. I found that quite difficult to manage that because they would come to me being the younger member of staff versus a coach who was probably mid 40s, mid 50s, they’d come to me with certain things that they’d feel more comfortable telling me than the coach.
And I found discipline quite difficult as well because of that, how close we were in age, but I suppose a different level of that obviously are older, they’re a little bit older. Have you ever struggled with that, you know, dealing with adults versus college athletes?
Cory Schlesinger
No. I mean, it’s, the weight room is a controlled space, you know, and that’s the part where, you know, it’s, you can go there and you know what to expect every day. When you got onto the court and you’re playing in front of thousands and thousands of fans and it’s the unexpected, right? There’s just different dynamics. So there’s something safe about the weight room. There’s something safe that’s like, okay, this is a place I’m coming in and like, no, one’s judging me. Like I finally don’t have eyes on me. So the privacy and the respect is probably the thing that I try to hone in on the most, as far as that space, because it is a place where it’s kind of hard because they’re getting judged in everything that they do, whether it’s in their social life or whether it’s in their professional life, on the court, in front of all these eyes.
The last thing I want to do is put them in vulnerable positions in the weight room, as far as like, oh my God, you’re not doing that right. Like I’m judging you on this. Like I don’t want them to ever feel that. If anything, I want to put them through things that’s obviously a lot more fun to them. Don’t get me wrong. But like, we got to get the actual training in, but in their eyes, it’s got to be looking at as I can’t be judging this space. Like the worst case scenario that I do is I fail and I’m okay failing in this space. And that’s kind of the difference as far as the tone and the feeling. It’s not like college where it’s just like rep this, rep that, look like this, A skip, B skip, you know, on cadence, on pace. And it’s got to look a certain way or else they reflects badly upon me.
That’s the one thing that I feel that in this space, like my goal is to make it to where they don’t feel like they’re being judged in that way. And that’s the same with me. Like, I don’t feel the need that I got to be this stereotypical meathead or this strength coach that put on this like super hyper masculine facade to go, “Hey, this is the place where we get better and it’s tough and it’s …” You know, sometimes it’s not even about that at all.
Robert Pacey
Do you think we do that too much as strength and conditioning?
Cory Schlesinger
Oh, absolutely.
Robert Pacey
Yeah. Okay. Why is that?
Cory Schlesinger
Because that’s what’s attractive. That’s what we get paid for, right? Like, I mean, obviously you look at college football, you know, that’s a probably a good place to look after the extremes, right. And of course they have their own culture and that’s totally cool. Like do what you do like and that gets your people right and that’s great for your organization to be that. And I think that’s the ultimate message from this is like, be what you need to be for the players in your organization. It’s a feel, like if I come into the weight room and it’s down, alright, let’s crank some music up, let’s have some fun. And then maybe I’m joking around and getting to some people’s butts and you’re like, “Come on. Hey, this is how we do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” And it just gets them going. Most of the time, it’s like, “Hey man, how are you feeling?” They’re like, “What you thinking?”
Like I’m talking to them like I’m in an office space. I’m talking to them like it’s my coworker. Not, and maybe there needs to be more of that, I don’t know. You know, if I go back to college, it’s different because you’re leading young men to be better men. So there is that discipline and there is that action. But you know, for me, it’s I get why, because it gets a click bait. It gets people excited. It looks, you know, whatever it looks, whether it’s good, bad, or indifferent, it’s still click bait and it creates a platform. So maybe that’s what they got to do to be successful. I think for me, it’s just whoever you are, whether you’re stoic or you’re eccentric be a hundred percent you and you’ll be just fine.
Robert Pacey
Yeah. So just tapping into that kind of NBA stereotype, when you were in the collegiate setting, what did you think from an S&C point of view was actually really needed in the NBA and having been there, what is from a strength and condition, from a strength coach point of view, from a strength and conditioning point of view, what is actually needed to give your players the best opportunity to succeed?
Cory Schlesinger
So it’s the same answer, it’s just different. So for my thought it was, I didn’t, they need load, they need load and they need load. And in my head load meant heavy deadlifts, heavy squats, cleans, you know, the big bang things. Like that’s what they need. The same answer now being in the NBA, it’s still load. Like they are under loaded in a sense, but it’s what they don’t get. So how can I get load for tissue adaptations? Well, I can get it through isometrics. I can get it through machines and I’m like, oh man, don’t use machines.
Robert Pacey
Oh man.
Cory Schlesinger
Oh man, don’t use machines. Oh, I’m a huge advocate for machines, especially being at this level. It just makes sense because it doesn’t matter how I get them the load. It’s the vessel, that’s how you get it there. For me, I don’t care if it comes from a 400 pound back squat or if it comes from a hack squat. To me, it doesn’t matter how I get them the load. I just got to get them the load. And especially because of the amount of competition and the amount of … I mean, the sport itself, once again, reverse engineering, it is only plyometrics, that’s it. It is plyometrics done in all planes on hardwood services. I don’t think we need to do more plyometrics. You know what I mean?
So I need to give them what they don’t have, which is zero velocity. So if I’m working a zero velocity that I probably need to load that AKA, an isometric, and now I’m getting them what they don’t have. So in other words, let’s just look at it like this, playing basketball is the gas, training is the brakes. My goal is to give them the brakes, give them the suspension system, give them, because they’re here for a reason. They’re here because they are athletic. And that’s, I think the biggest difference between college and professionals, is I used to chase outputs because outputs validated progression. And now that I have, you know, 20, 30, more pounds on their back squat in three weeks, I am the strength coach, I make them stronger. Yeah, that works in college because you can do anything in college.
You can be a hit program, an Olympic-based program, you can be a power lifting program. It doesn’t matter because anything you do to them is going to get them stronger. Thus, you look like, no matter what you do, it works, they got stronger. When they’re older athletes and the competition is high as it is, that’s why there is no philosophy. It just depends on their background. If I got a 33 year old who has a background in Olympic lifting and that’s what he likes, I’m going to make it work for them. But you know, it’s very rare. That case doesn’t happen very, very often, but it’s my philosophy is their philosophy just done in a way that’s strategic with the amount of stress they’re being placed upon in competition in sport,
Robert Pacey
You’ve opened Pandora’s Box now with the machines. Let’s dive into that. I know the reason why it’s hated on so much, but, and it’s not come up in conversation with anyone, I don’t think. Maybe everyone’s using machines and just too bloody scared to say anything.
Cory Schlesinger
Oh my God, that’s awesome. Well, in that case, I’m hot. Let me, I will tell you this. I, in most case scenarios prefer them in a lot of ways, especially with high minute players. I am hugely for machines. I’ve actually created a few different types just for my specific population. But yeah, I’m huge on machines.
Robert Pacey
Okay. Tell us more. Tell us more.
Cory Schlesinger
So what I’ve done is I’ve actually taken a Smith machine and got the bar kind of cut out of it because a typical Smith machine is the ones obviously on the track and it’s a straight bar all the way through. So what I’ve done is I’ve got a company to manufacturer one, where they actually take the bar out and I can take in different types of bars in it. So for example, like I can insert a safety squat bar attachment. I can take that out, I can insert like a neutral grip bench and take that out. And then obviously I can have a bar that goes straight through.
And so what this allows me for is different options of loading, even though it’s a Smith machine and then I had these slant boards that’s sliding underneath it. And so I can make it basically a hack squat or I can make it all sorts of different active foot. That’s obviously huge, different variations, but I love machines because at the end of the day, I don’t care what vessel load comes in. I just care that I get these guys load. And when they’re taxed because of competition through obviously play, neuromuscularly, everything is shocked, you know. So the last thing I’m going to do is have them control more things by take more resources away from them. Why not just give them a machine, tell them where to go? At the end of the day, I’m just getting load, whether I’m doing it through heavy isometrics or heavy eccentrics.
So instead of them learning how to train, I give them the skill of lifting, which now I’m worrying about, basically neuromuscularly taxing them even more. Now I’m just getting them load and then, “Hey, go play basketball. You’ll be alright.”
Robert Pacey
So when you introduce machines, are the guys reasonably surprised? I’m guessing that’s well, based on our previous conversation that potentially people aren’t using machines. Does that like surprise these guys?
Cory Schlesinger
I think mainly when people get introduced to machines at this level, it’s through isolated machine work. So it’s like leg extension, leg curl. Me I’m like, nah, give me that big hack squat. Like give me the Smith machines. Let’s train it globally. you know. So I’m more into that. Now don’t get me wrong. There’s like seated calf raise, absolutely love it. Some of those machines, for sure, but most of the machine stuff that I liked using, and then that’s kind of on the same scale as like a landmine attachment. Like I love a landmine because it kind of tells them where to go. It has a little bit more degrees of freedom, but I can use the angles of that to create stability. And I don’t need them trying to like figure that out themselves when they’re already neuromuscularly tax from competition.
What I need is just get them load. How can I get that to them? So for me, that’s the hardware. So I guess the difference between college and NBA is college, I’m getting them hardware, but I’m getting it through them through skill of training. And pros, I’m getting them hardware, but I’m getting it through just machines. And then I take care of the software in two totally different ways. In college, the software is learning how to do basic stuff like sprinting, like loading, jumping. And in pros, that’s where it gets fun for me. That’s the part that I enjoy the most is now training their software because I’m not tapping their hardware as much as I would in the college setting. So a lot of my eggs in the basket for professional athletes, I’m training their software.
Robert Pacey
Interesting. Let’s switch on that and bring in the sports science side.
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah.
Robert Pacey
Robin might feature again in this as well. From your perspective, I know, like we say, sports science and strength and conditioning, if it’s two separate things, but I think, you know where I’m coming from.
Cory Schlesinger
For sure.
Robert Pacey
Where do you think that fits and what impact, like be honest now, what impact do you think it’s had, especially over the last five, six, seven years in collegiate setting and the pros right into what you guys do as a strength coach?
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah, to link it to a little bit to the last question, the only thing I think the sports science aspect should do is show the efficiency or inefficiency of what we are doing.
Robert Pacey
Okay.
Cory Schlesinger
I mean, don’t get me wrong. Chasing outputs is cool. I love chasing outputs because it makes me feel like, oh, I got them, they jump higher, or they run faster, you know, for this whatever output. But the question is what cost did I have to take away from them or what resources I have to rip away to get them that new output. And is that new output actually going to be beneficial for them in the long-term? That’s the part where it’s like timing and all these other things that go into it. But as far as the sports science aspect, I think it’s should be the most important, but at the same time, the least important, depending on what you’re looking at.
And so for me, linking it to the last question, when I’m training their software, the only thing I’m training is efficiency. I’m trying to get them new patterns or new degrees of variability within the innate skill or innate movement patterns that they already demonstrate. So, and I know this is going to be controversial, but like Bosch like, like there’s some Bosch esque stuff, I know it’s controversial, but there’s some stuff that I take away from that. Like I liked the Aqua bags, I like the Aqua balls. I like some of these things that are going to challenge their software through, whether it’s low velocity to high velocity, but it’s not the output of sprinting. It’s not the output of some of these other things. And that I can micro dose that multiple times a day, if not every single game day.
And so that’s where the sports science aspect can come in and I can see without giving them extra load, how am I getting them more efficiency? Because what they’re bringing in is probably already good enough, how can I make that better? And that’s what’s going to have them more available more so than alright, let’s just load you up and hope that this tissue adaptation is going to keep you strong. I don’t know. I think if I can get their coordination, their GPS system in their body a little bit more efficient and a little bit better, then it’s going to be less resource that they use on the court. So that means probably more recovery and so then, as opposed to giving them more load for a tissue adaptation. I think tissue adaptation at this level, it’s more, especially and once again, I’m just talking about high minute players. Like these are the players that are playing 36 plus minutes at night, like very high volume, high intensity. That’s where I think I get the more bang for buck for those athletes.
Robert Pacey
So when it comes to efficiency and talking about sports science allowing you to understand the cost of what you do, how can sports science help you understand the impact that you’re having on efficiency?
Cory Schlesinger
Right. I mean, for me, it’s a great story that I look at. I won’t say the player, but I’ll tell you the situation. Situation was COVID hits and then boom, we’re in the bubble. We go into the bubble and we have second spectrum and we have all this speed data that’s collected via video cameras and all this. And it’s really cool. Like we get reports and they’re sent to us from the league and it’s like, oh wow. And then we’re in the bubble and one of our higher player or higher minute players is creating an absurd amount of high intensity sprinting. An absurd, like more than he’s ever done and then we get a call. It’s like, oh, this is a red flag. Like yeah, you got to scale manage him and then when you talk to him, he’s like, not it’s the best I’ve ever felt.
And it’s like huh, what happened? Oh, no, he was more prepared. We were only playing eight games. It’s like a football season. Imagine only playing 16 NBA games. Imagine like, man, I think they would be crazy outputs. Could you imagine?
Robert Pacey
Yeah, yeah.
Cory Schlesinger
Oh my goodness. Or there was like more timeouts or there’s more stoppage in play because they have the availability or they have the resources to have those outputs. So that’s where I was looking at that. I was like, man, what sports science has told me right there is they told me that I had to change a tactical thing and I needed to go tell that to a coach, saying that he’s in danger because he’s creating more high intensity. And it’s like, no, he was prepared. We had two months to basically train off season to get high in sprinting for the first time in this particular individual’s career. So when they’re doing that, they had the capacity to do it. And that’s where I’m like, that’s where I go back to, yeah, sports science, nowhere, you know, but sports science can be everywhere as far as I would love to see more on the end of, for instance, our tendon health and tendon protocols, right.
I can look at reactive strength indexes through, you know, tracks or force plates. Like there’s some things that I’ll really want to tamper with because when I think about, and once again, this is all theory, so this is something that hopefully it grasped to the listeners. But everything that we do from a testing standpoint is vertical displacement via force plates. But yet that’s what we train everything off of. But injuries happen in vertical or horizontal vectors. Like, I’m sorry, but it’s change of direction, is when people blow their stuff out. Like when people land in a vertical vector and roll an ankle, okay. Sure. But when these are blown out and all that, it’s because it’s horizontal vectors that are happening and it’s a combination of a vertical vector into a horizontal vector or a horizontal vector into a vertical vector.
But yet we’re taking all this information from like very sagely based things and just assuming this is how we should train athletes and manage or monitor them. That’s where I disagree, because there’s so much skill into that. And so are you truly getting the outputs to make the inferences that you think you’re making via testing? Ah, I don’t know. You know, I question that like there’s times where it was thought that doing game day jumping is a good idea. Now I look back and now after seeing it, I’m like, was that the best thing to do? Because imagine being told, you know, 20 minutes before a game that your jump’s not good today.
Robert Pacey
Yeah, not what you want to know.
Cory Schlesinger
You know what I’m saying? And then how do you hide that information regardless? And then do you think there’s a lot of intent behind that jump if you’re not sharing that information, they just go in and jumping in and leaving? It’s like, then it just becomes, I don’t know, like I question a lot of things and that’s where I’m, I think until we get to the point where it’s truly coming from the court, I don’t know how much effect we can have because the controlled settings are not as controlled as you think.
Robert Pacey
So force plates, what place did they have at the Suns giving them what you just said?
Cory Schlesinger
Well, once again, this is going to be more theory because it’s very anecdotal at this point. Like it’s nothing that’s hard and concrete. What I’ll say is our goal is have force plates involved in training only. So this is going to be in contrast to whatever the lifts that we are accomplishing that day. And the goal is to use these tracks will force plates to complement the lift that we’re doing, thus, it will complement the practice that we are doing that day.
So here’s just a really rough example, say we’re doing a squat. Obviously I’m focusing on vertical vectors. So then I can go, oh, I’m going to do a counter movement jump. Cool. But what if I want to work and monitor horizontal vectors? Well, maybe I’m going to do a more specific lift and it’s actually going to get me at those angles where I’m actually creating that force. For example, a landmine split squat, when you’re leaning into it at a 45 degree angle, once again, like this is all just theory and anecdotal. No, one’s really dive into this, at least I don’t think so. But these are things that I’m like, I’d want to see those effects and then see an ice skater jump in and out of a force plate.
And that’s the goal for us I think moving forward. And once again, it’s all anecdotal. We’re not there yet. Not even close. I can’t go out there and say this is the way of doing it. This is all just theory at this point. But I believe if we can complement the stressors and be able to directly affect the, whatever the testing we’re doing, actually reflects the training we’re doing and the angles that we’re doing it at, then I think we can have some cool stuff, but until then, I think we’re pretty far off.
Robert Pacey
Okay. Just want to touch on the Bosch stuff, given the look that you gave when you mentioned it. I always get that look. I always get the like, sorry, type of thing, but it was, it’s come up more and more in conversation as you can imagine. Aqua bikes, you’ve got Instagram and we’ll come on to Instagram later on when we chat. But if you go to Instagram, you see plenty of people using Aqua bags and using them for anything and everything. How do you incorporate them and what’s your rationale for, I mean, we’ve talked about the efficiency side of things, but yeah, how do you incorporate them at the Suns?
Cory Schlesinger
Well, I think the one thing to understand is, and have a little bit of context is what is the environment for NBA players to train in when they’re in season? Well, one thing that people probably have no idea is that when you’re traveling on the road, it’s actually the worst training environment. Like you don’t know what you’re getting. And then the best thing that you’re getting is power blocks, some bands or whatever you bring with you, what we fly on, you know, obviously we have nice planes that we fly on, but you’re still limited to what you can bring. Like you’re not bringing a whole weight room with you. So these are the best athletes in the world and they have access to some of the most mediocre equipment at best when we’re traveling for half of the season or half of the year, which in that case it’s four months.
So what can you bring? And that’s where you have to be a product of the environment that you’re trying to create. And our environment is crappy equipment and crappy availability, thus, I can’t bring the load. So how can I get load? Well, I could fill up a bag of water at the arena and that gives me load. So now I at least can carry load with me, or I’m just limited to dumbbells and/or like little power blocks that hopefully go up to 60 pounds.
So that’s where the origination of oh, I can carry that with me. And so that’s where I think a lot of the things that I used to stereotype about the NBA was like, oh, that’s probably where it came from more than anything, is because you can’t travel with a lot, so then thus the Aqua bag. So now how I use the Aqua bag is, I have super heavy ones that will at least let me get some load on the guys to do more of our isometrics. And then for that, then for sure we can challenge the isometric by adding perturbations to it. So thus, we can add some arm movements that allow the water to shift left and right, thus neuromuscularly preparing them. So when I use the water bags, it’s generally in preparation for sport. So it’s always pre and then that’s where we started getting a little bit more into the lighter and adding more velocity.
So I have ramps, I have step up boxes, I have all sorts of things that allow us to do basically like single leg RDL into a clean, into a step up. So pretty simple, we go from a load ISO, challenge that ISO via perturbations. Then we add a locomotion with lighter, challenge locomotion through speed, and then add complexity to the movement. So then it’s one step into two, right. Or I’m changing from a vertical vector into a horizontal vector or vice versa, horizontal vector into a vertical vector and then stabilize.
So that’s how I use it and that’s the efficiency, the software, because no matter how good of an athlete you are, it’s still tough. It’s still challenging with a water bag, no matter what you’re doing. And that’s where you use water balls, water bags, things that can change how you actually load it, how the feel of it. But yeah, that’s how we use the water bags as far as, and it’s really came from just being on the road more than anything, and then creating efficiency through movement.
Robert Pacey
One thing I wanted to ask you and it was about the comment that you made about plyometrics. Obviously there’s going to jump in a hundred times a day, times a week, times a month. Do you do any low level plyometrics that run through your program or is it just zero jumping at all when you are in charge of these guys?
Cory Schlesinger
Right, so that’s the hard question to answer because it’s like, who are we talking about? Are we talking about one through five? Are we talking about six through 10? You know, so that’s where everything exist, it’s just to what doses do they exist? And so that’s where for me, once again, going back into the idea of how we’re going to add quote, unquote, sports science, which I hate that we think that force plates equals force or equal sports science. But you know what I’m getting at.
Robert Pacey
Yeah, I know. I know.
Cory Schlesinger
Is okay, objectively measuring, right, is for certain athletes, their contrast or their demand in their training should actually reflect what they’re missing. So if you’re a high minute player, then you’re probably missing just more controlled zero velocity load, tendon health, et cetera. If you are a extremely low minute player, you’re missing plyometrics, like you’re missing games, right. You’re missing the play. So don’t get me wrong, we get that through shortsighted games, which that’s a whole another conversation, but there’s, if I can still develop you, then we can go into some higher level plyometrics because you’re still not experiencing the frequency or the consistency of high intensity, like you are from the higher minute players.
So that’s where they do exist a hundred percent. It’s just from the scale of your super high minute players, probably not seeing too many depth box jumps. You know what I’m saying or shock training to your 14s and 15, you know, players that are your new drafts or your, you know, your two-way players who are experiencing that because, you know, it’s training white to black zones. And when they live in the gray, well, you still need to touch on white and black. It’s just, how much do you touch in white and black?
Robert Pacey
Just moving on a bit to another topic, which is recovery; obviously a big part of what you do, especially that, like you say that one to five guys. How are you periodizing that especially with, I mean, this is Robin’s quote, so tell me if he’s wrong and therefore I’m wrong, 3.6 games a week?
Cory Schlesinger
3.6 days a week.
Robert Pacey
The last season? Okay, wild.
Cory Schlesinger
Yes.
Robert Pacey
So how were you periodizing recovery? What does that recovery look like because when we spoke, you mentioned about resistance training as a recovery modality, which would be interesting to dive into as well.
Cory Schlesinger
For sure, yeah. So if you look at 3.6 games a week, people go, oh, that’s a lot of games. And then you add East Coast travel and then you add, so it’s so much more than just 3.6 games, because those are 3.6 games and most of the time they’re taking a different cities. Like that’s the part that a lot of people it’s like when you add that layer, then you have a better understanding of this. Oh, wow, this is greater than just playing the volumes of games and in a short amount of period of time. It’s all the other allostatic stress that goes with it.
So what I would say as far as how do we periodize it, once again, I can’t speak for everyone, right. I can only speak in generalities, but the best way to do it is to be able to and this is something that I took from Stanford was in the off season, I would ask them, what’s your favorite modality, what’s your favorite way of recovering? Nine times out of 10 they’re going to say massage, right? Like that’s the thing that’s everybody loves, right and yeah, it has a good effect. Cold water immersion, not a lot of people were for, but has an extreme effect. The goal is the times of the year that you need the most, we need to push it to the times where you actually need the most, so that it has its most maximum effectiveness.
So for example, if we’re in preseason and I’m shuttling these guys with these modalities, then when we need it the most, when we’re playing 3.6 games in a week, and we’re traveling east coast to west coast and west coast to east coast, well, those are the times that we need to actually use it. So it’s almost like a resource if you will. So the most potent resources should be dictated based off of the schedule when there’s the most extreme stressors and then vice versa, get them the ones that they don’t necessarily like the most at the times where they don’t really need it the most, so like foam rolling techniques, stretching, whatever. But this is a different animal. Like we have a large staff and these guys have resources beyond all means. I mean, these guys can have massage therapists living with them if they wanted, you know.
So, you know, these are the things that you’ve got to take in consideration, but as far as like a general concept, and I hope this appeals to listeners, but as a general concept, the things that are the most effective for that athlete, perceptually they know, those are the ones that you need to restrict for the times that are actually needed, for the times where they’re actually experiencing those higher, higher stresses.
Robert Pacey
Do the players understand that? They’re just not thinking I like that, so let’s do all the time?
Cory Schlesinger
That’s the goal. Right, and that’s the thing, what it turns into it’s like, well, I like massage and massage was good. So should I just get massage all the time? Don’t get me wrong. Like, yes. Like I mean, at the end of the day, I can’t tell certain guys no, but the goal is education, right? The goal is, and to introduce newer things or to introduce other things, you know, and then just prioritize and have infographs and things that help on the education platforms so they’re seeing it in different areas. But it’s hard to specifically like go, yeah, this is how we do it, these are the certain guys that do it, because you know, it’s across the board. It is. Stanford, you know what I mean? Like UAB, Santa Clara, you know, those colleges I was at, oh yeah. I could dictate all of that. And I did, and it was fun, but here it’s a little bit different because there’s a lot more things at play, but yeah, ideally that’s kind of how it goes.
And as far as the resistance training aspects, this is the one that actually became the most popular, which I thought was weird, but guys like they loved 1 by 20.
Robert Pacey
Okay.
Cory Schlesinger
And that’s how we use it as I use it as a recovery tool. I used 1 by 20 and it just made sense in my head. It’s like, I just need blood flow and how am I going to get it, machines. And so I use 1 by 20 and the other end of the spectrum is lower load is higher volume. And so just creating basically the BFR sensation, but they’re doing it through specific machines. I have hip adductor machines or four way hip machines, you know, 45 degree back extensions, back extensions. What else we have? Obviously our squatting apparatuses, I got isokinetic stuff too that we use. But yeah, it’s seated calf raise tibialis raise, like hidden all those local tissues through isolated and global patterns. But 1 by 20, just to get that, just to get blood flow.
And then you just add a10th of a pound weight every time. And the next thing you know, that’s your recovery modality by the end of the, you know, last year, 72 game season, that’s actually pretty strong. Once you get there and the next thing, you know, like if you’re strong as your modality, then dang, you’ve done something pretty good. Then you create a pretty resilient human being, at least I hope.
Robert Pacey
During that recovery session that involves this 1 by 20, how many exercises would you normally prescribe for these guys?
Cory Schlesinger
10 to 12. 10 to 12. So it’s like some suspension training too, some TRX stuff. It’s nothing too crazy, right. But it’s full range of motion. Most of it is not neuromuscularly demanding at all because it’s machine-based, and by the time the guys leave, they actually feel better than when they came in. And I didn’t even think about using 1 by 20 that way until someone said that during the summer, when we used it in the middle of the week and they’re like, man, I feel great. I was like, wait, no, I don’t want you. Oh, dang, you probably should actually, yeah. Never thought of it that way. But it was because we attack, we used the 1 by 20 to attack the tissues and attack the areas that we don’t get through traditional training. And that’s what I like the most is like, yeah, the hip adductor machine, who have thought? Money shot.
Robert Pacey
Nice. Cool. Well, it was one thing I’m wondering, well, I’m going to apologize for asking about it because it’s something that interests me because you kind of a big deal on Instagram Cory.
Cory Schlesinger
Jesus, no.
Robert Pacey
Is that all right? Let’s have a little chat on that.
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah, totally fine
Robert Pacey
Yeah, sweet because this is part of the industry now. Like it’s becoming a huge part. Is it something that you particularly sought out to create or is that something that’s just happened pretty organically?
Cory Schlesinger
It was very organic because I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, I still don’t know what I’m doing, but it started when I was 23 years old at Santa Clara University. And I was doing like foam check, right. So I was like filming a guy and just being like, look, man, this is the thing I’m telling you about this dead lift that you’re doing wrong. And then he ended up like smoking a PR and I showed it to him. He’s like, “Hey, like, can you send that to me?” Sure. Send it to him. And then he, I think, yeah, that’s when Facebook was a thing, nobody uses Facebook anymore, but you know, he posts it on Facebook and then his mom calls me and she’s like, “Oh my God, it was so good seeing him do something other than basketball.”
Robert Pacey
Class.
Cory Schlesinger
And I was like, “Oh, that’s kind of cool.” And then the coaches came downstairs and they’re like, “Yo, like, this is what you guys do down here?”I’m like, “Yeah, you probably should have known about this, but okay, yeah. Cool. We try to get strong down here.” And go, “Oh, that’s great for recruiting.” Oh, didn’t even think of it that way.
Robert Pacey
Interesting.
Cory Schlesinger
And then that’s how it snowballed. And that it came from the most humble place where I was trying to help a kid and then it turned out to be in this thing that I don’t even know what it is even more, but ever since I went to the Suns, I kind of like backed off on it, like it hasn’t been too crazy. I was way more active during my Stanford UAB days. I guess that’s when I was exploiting athletes because I would just demonstrate them and they were cool with it. And to them, as soon as that thing went up, all of a sudden intensities went up and all of a sudden more weight and got a little bit more into it and there’s a little bit more high fives. And I’m like, oh, this is a training tool for me. You know, this is creating intensity.
And so, yeah and then it’s kind of spiraled out of the way. And I know it’s this weird double-edged sword where it’s, you want to, you know, further yourself or you want to, you know, put yourself into a position where you can have opportunities, but then you have the other camp where it’s like, you sell out? Like, oh, you’re doing the, you know, like it’s selfish. And it’s I look at it, I go, yeah. It’s like, at the end of the day, if I get fired, who’s looking out for me. Like, you think they’re looking out for me? No, they ain’t putting stuff like, so if I’m not putting myself in a position to create more opportunities for myself, then what are you doing as a professional?
Like, I think that’s what we all should be doing. You all should be creating your own brand or creating whatever you think is best and that’s a beautiful thing about it. It should be your niche because I think what the trouble is now is people just try to copy what they think is successful. And that’s why you keep seeing the same stuff over and over again. And for me, that’s why it’s like, I still use an iPhone. I don’t use a bunch of infographs like I just, because my stuff is like, it’s just, oh, this is what I’m thinking, this is a theory, I have no idea if it works or not, but here just out there. And for me it became a great education tool because smarter and smarter people and people I respect start engaging with me.
Because when I was at 23, I was in a basement by myself and I had, I mean, I was getting paid nothing. And so you think I had money for continuing education? No, you know, I couldn’t even leave the city I was in because I couldn’t afford the gas to get out of town. So, but that was a place where I could have these conversations and if I put out decent stuff, then I would receive feedback and now I get to talk to that guy, but now like, oh, you want to exchange numbers? So oh my God, I get to call you whenever? Wow, this is so cool. And it all, that’s how it turned into. And I think that’s where people look at it in the wrong way, man, because they don’t know how to do it. And they get a little intimidated by it. And because of that, they’re like, “Yo, you shouldn’t do that.” Hey man, at the end of the day, it’s for you or it’s not for you and if you’re in for create opportunities for yourself then go for it but if you ain’t then sorry about it.
Robert Pacey
Yeah. So is the goal for you to create your personal brand, so you’ve got something that is yours and only yours, no matter what happens with career-wise like 9:00 to 5:00-wise? Is that the…
Cory Schlesinger
I mean, yeah. I think my brand or whatever is associated with, I can’t call it a brand. I don’t even know what to call it, but it’s associated with me because I was 100% myself. Like I didn’t try to do it some other way. I didn’t try to copy exercises and claim them as my own. I didn’t do any of that. I just went like, this is what I’m thinking. And so, because I just put myself out and was very vulnerable, I got a lot of stuff back. And then next thing you know, I got companies that reach out and they go, “Yo, we’ll send you this. If you …” And I’m like, “Oh my God, I don’t even know how to handle all this.” Like, it’s a business. Like, this is why people do it. Now I get it. But it opened up doors and opportunities obviously to talk to guys like you and hopefully create something cool. But you know, I don’t even know. Like…
Robert Pacey
Doing a good job, doing a great job.
Cory Schlesinger
I don’t even, I’ll be honest, I have no idea because man, the comment section, you just got to stop reading it because there’s some vultures out there bro.
Robert Pacey
Gets a little bit weird.
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah. It gets weird quick. Oh the DMs get really weird. Oh man. They get really weird. But you know, at the same time, it’s hilarious.
Robert Pacey
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So just moving that on to where people can find you on Instagram, Twitter as well, of course.
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah, it’s Schles strength. So is like the beginning of my last name. It’s S-C-H-L-E-S strength once again S-C-H-L-E-S strength. And that’s where you’ll find me probably sharing stories about steaks, shoes, whatever my fiancé’s into and then occasionally some training.
Robert Pacey
You’ve got a dog?
Cory Schlesinger
Oh the two dogs, two really stupid dogs. I have really dumb dogs. Like they’re cute, but they’re so stupid. But they’re awesome. They’re awesome though.
Robert Pacey
Well, Cory, thank you very much. Thank you so much for giving me time. I do, I really do appreciate it and fitting me into a very busy schedule in the no time off NBA schedule. But yeah, I do appreciate it. Thanks for being so open and sharing what you guys do at the Suns and obviously everything else that goes around it.
Cory Schlesinger
Yeah. I appreciate your time and thank you for letting me come on your platform.
Robert Pacey
Thanks mate. Speak soon.
